MotoUtah: Motocross and Off-Road Riding in Utah

On a side note I'm not trying to argue with anybody on this topic I'm just trying to learn more about what is going on because if have heard different things from both sides. So I'm just trying to get educated on this

Carlo- will you have the team class? That might make it affordable. If I had a team with three riders on it would we also have to buy an AMA card each? And with our team of three riders...who gets the ten $$$$ answer me that!!!

I'll let the Foxes answer questions about what classes they will run.
But I can answer about the AMA card. YES, EVERY RIDER MUST HAVE AN AMA CARD in order to race an AMA sanctioned race. That includes mini, ATV, Sportsmen, Novice, Amateur, Expert, Women, Girls, Boys, Yamaha riders, Honda riders, KTM riders, EVERYONE.
The answer about the $10.00 is the same...the NHHA gets the $10.00, or would it be $30.00 since they call it a "rider" fee? Wow, another unanswered question to throw into the pot. The AMA allows clubs to offer additional classes but the club MUST run the AMA recognized classes no matter what.

I personally think the nhha is a good organization and feel they will attract more riders to the nationals,there was a lot of new riders that showed up to the first round. Also with the NHHA offering contingency for the novice and amature classes hopefully it will attract more riders because of it, obvously this is just speculation and opinion as is thinking that the nationals will attract less riders, nobody knows for sure.

Jared, the clubs putting on Nationals (Sage Riders have done so for the past 23 years STRAIGHT) know for a fact that Nationals already lose riders because of the AMA fees. That is why the Foxes and Sage Riders see an increase in entry fees as a bad thing to do during these economic times. Will the "fluff" offered by NHHA be worth it to the average rider? That's the business decision each club has had to make.
At the Sage Riders meeting Wednesday night we had some projected balance sheets for the race: One scenario where we held just a USRA sanctioned race, the other where we held the race as USRA, AMA & NHHA sanctioned. The projection is that we would be better off to drop AMA. But, the group in the room voted to "give them a year" and the club would risk more financial loss.
You racers that aren't in a club are getting the BIGGEST gift you can imagine when you show up and race a race, then load up and go home to get ready for the next one. You have no idea what sacrifices others are making for YOU.
JOIN -- PARTICIPATE -- DONATE !! Your sport won't survive without YOUR help.
AJP

Ditto to AJP's comments, The facts are there in front of us. The majority of riders don't understand what it takes to put on a race. It includes countless hours of volunteer work, personel time and expenses, example:
A crew of us Sageriders are in charge of one the loops for the Spring National. We have been out several times since last fall mapping, marking with GPS, jumpimg through BLM hoops trying to make it the best National caliber race it can be.
There will be a group of six going out again tomorrow to continue to work on the loop we are responsible for.
Don't get me wrong, we love to do this, this is our passion but these loops at the races don't magically appear without the help many volunteers and club members working hundreds of hours at their own expense and cost out of our own pocket.
None of the projected balance sheets for these races reflect the club members time and personel expenses to put on a race, USRA or an AMA sanctioned race.
All clubs are looking for more help to keep the quality of the races up, Get involed, join a club, raise your hand, volunteer!

As a district 37 racer, district 37 club rep and d37 club race ref there are 1 or 2 questions I can answer reguarding this topic.

From talking to NHHA representitives they said they tried contacting the Utah clubs with many calls and many e-mails and CC'd all emails to the utah clubs reguarding the NHHA's decisions with little to no response. Also they said they were willing to waive the fees for the 1st year but no one asked or responded to the AMA memo.

the District 37 Clubs have voted to take on the half of the 10$ per rider so its only a $5 increase for the riders. This way the clubs can benefit from the promotion, NHHA course markings, same day results, podium, a professionalism that the NHHA is providing the series while only giving the riders a $5 increace bring the entry fee for a National to $49.

Also to say that the District clubs might not pay or that the NHHA is taking the money or giving it to someone else is ridiculous. every sinlge person on the panel is a volunteer, every club is a non-profit, the NHHA is a non profit. And to address the insurance question from the other thread they bought the insurance through the AMA and no one else.

On Land issues, the NHHA is comprised of D37 clubs who have been fighting for land and over land issues forever. the district raises its own money, has its own lobbyists, has a huge showing at lobby days every year and does their part to keep riding areas open. the district doesnt expect anyone else to do it for them because ultimately its D37's fight. to accuse the AMA and NHHA of not caring about land issues is ,again, ridiculous. Also the AMA is the biggest backer and supporter of the off road sport out there. True they're getting out of the promotion aspect but they're doing so to focus more on riders rights and the administrative side of racing.

Also for those that signed up for your AMA at the nevada race and didn't get your AMA cards the first person you should ask is the Club. they're responsible for sending in the AMA forms and apps and money.

I personally believe in what the NHHA is doing for the sport. Keeping the series alive and keeping it out of the hands of someone like Sean Reddish who ran the National Hare Scrambles series into the ground and then backed out of his 5 year contract leaving everyone else without a national series this year. Keeping the Hare and Hounds in the hands of the clubs is the most significant thing that has happened to the series is a long while. I can garantee if you wanted to send a rep. to cali for the meetings you'd be more then welcome to join the committee.

Instead of bashing a group for trying to get more publicity, more ridership and more professionalism for the series try e-mailing them or contacting them. the reason the thread was deleted from the D37 board is because that is not the place to go bashing a series with miss-information and miss-representation.

As far as the rules of the National Series... There are no throw outs for the Pros, there is only 1 throw out for everyone else. There is a C class for every displacement and age with a points spread and year end awards.

The $10 to the NHHA is paying for the web site, 6.125" x 8.125" ads in Cyclenews for every round of the series which is intarnationally distributed, the insurance from the AMA, the banners, the arrows, the stickers and t-shirts. And with the extra $10 along with the revenue generated by t-shirt, sticker and merch sales the promotion will only get better for next season and there will be more and more riders that make this series a priority.


The Utah rounds are my favorite races of the Entire series and I'm glad the clubs stepped up to work with the NHHA and gave them the chance to prove themselves.

ps. Jared, I heard you got hurt on the bomb... hope you're doing well!

I think an open forum is the perfect place for these kind of discussions. This way, its all out in the open and everybody knows whats going on and opinions can be heard.

open forums are great when all the information is presented correctly and everyone in the matter is represented. when its one sided with a limited amount of information being put on the table its not the best way to do things. Also it doesnt show a clean percentage of the actual thought of the area. The district board only has about 50-100 active participants in the conversations when there are over 5,000 people with district memberships.

Kudla,

You need to get your info and facts correct before you start spouting off how great the NHHA has been to the clubs.

The NHHA DID NOT contact the Foxes before they had this "Supposed" Vote on charging the clubs. The VERY first contact we had was a letter that rammed all this crap down out throats and I pretty sure it was the same from the other two Utah Clubs. We'll find out when they respond to your VERY INACCURATE portrayal of how the NHHA involved the Utah clubs.

We, the Foxes, DID NOT recieve any emails, NOR did we receive any phone calls. The only time we talked to someone, Chris Blais, was after we voted, as a club, that we can't afford the added costs and even then there was no mention of Fee Waiving. Who ever is telling you that, as it is very obvious you weren't the one making the calls has fed you a stomach full of B.S. Go back to your sources and call them out on this.

As for deleting the D37 thread, what another joke. It was very OBVIOUS that the comments being posted from the people from Utah were/are very bitter of what the NHHA is/was trying to pull. Here's a fact for you-every person that commented from Utah is HEAVILY involved with their club and EVERY club was represented in the Comments. Go back and read them and they all resonate the same sentiment: No Club was contacted and Freshly Sprung Upon them, why all the added costs, where are the costs going, and it will kill the races here in Utah.

The thread was deleted over three weeks ago and the last comment posted was all the clubs would be contacted to work things out: Guess what buddy- the Foxes haven't been contacted! and I haven't heard anything from the other clubs saying they have been contacted. Maybe they have, but we haven't, so again, get it right.

Is what the NHHA trying to so to the series a good thing - ABSOLUTELY! Is it good thing to cut off 30% of your races by excluding clubs, I wouldn't think so, but I guess if we little 'Ol Utah people need to expend another $1,000 each to come to some meetings we never knew about. That's a great offer!! Thanks for offering it. OBTW, when were the meetings? Last summer sometime. Just think I raced two California races and could have met with someone from the NHHA while I was there to meet with someone on my own dime instead of the clubs, but I guess I those emails got sent as well and I can't read.

I will give you credit though that NOBODY ELSE from the NHHA has done. At least you give a small list of what the money is going to although I would like it explained to all why the NHHA needs so much insurance when the sponsoring clubs are still required to buy their insurance for the race and the club is still responsible. Does this mean we don't need to buy insurance for the race we sponsor? If so, then we have some room to absorb some of the money we would lose from putting on a National. I an take that to our club and let them know! Let us all know.

As for contacting us let me take a stand here here to help the almighty D37 clubs and the NHHA people contact us little 'Ol Utah people. Here are a few small ways to contact me and I have 3 more email addresses and 3 more phone numbers if these are not enough:

Cell Phone 801-971-6901
Business Line 801-930-9244
This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it

its obvious that nothing that anyone says will sufficiently answer your questions.

I have my facts straight because the FIRST thing I said was "This is what I was told" so I'm being 100% honest about what I was told. And the people that told me are very honest and respectable people.

The reason they need to buy insurance is because they are in control of a racing series, plain and simple. If someone gets hurt they'll try and sue the club, they've got insurance, so then they'll try and sue the NHHA, Now they have insurance. Then they'll try and sue the AMA, they also have insurance. Its to protect both the series and the riders best interests.

and to keep the record straight no one ever said "Lil' Ol Utah" or the "almighty D37" except you.

Ps. I've put together many events and worked many of them as well and wonder why your race is so expensive to put on? Land permits? BLM Fees? because the number you quoted (I cant remember it off the top of my head) seemed extrememly high. We put on an 85 mile Enduro in the National forest costing just over $6k and had no sponsors and a $45 entry fee last year and still broke even.

Thanks Eric for the post it really helps to have both sides of the story so people can form there own opinions on this topic instead of having there opinion formed by people like carlo. And carlo Eric brings a good point that I have also wondered too. How come the foxes' race cost more than the others to put on?

Creepy Carl- I find it humorous you have SO much to say on these issues, yet haven't attended the last 2 Fox meetings.

You want to talk about family size, etc. and cost. My family has 4 big bike racers, we are all AMA members. We have one member chasing a national title as well as racing the USRA series. So, I'm sorry Creepy Carl but your "family size" example was ridiculous. If you can't afford kids, keep your zipper up.

If AMA costs are what causes your family to not race a USRA race, don't. It's a hobby anyway!

As far as you being the one to meet anyone with NHHA, I would like the club to put that to a vote. I'm not the only one you rub the wrong way and I think with your poor business sense; there would be a much better option.

"If AMA costs are what causes your family to not race a USRA race, don't. It's a hobby anyway!"




I thought the idea was to INCREASE rider turnout?

VintageRacer wrote:
"If AMA costs are what causes your family to not race a USRA race, don't. It's a hobby anyway!"




I thought the idea was to INCREASE rider turnout?

And if they take Nationals away from Utah; they lose the out of state National turnout. I would like to hear opinions from the National racers regarding an event that more affects them than most of us on here. Do any of you care about the AMA fees?

As far as the Foxes are concerned this subject is closed in our book and we are going to start working on our other races.

jaredbuoy wrote:
Thanks Eric for the post it really helps to have both sides of the story so people can form there own opinions on this topic instead of having there opinion formed by people like carlo. And carlo Eric brings a good point that I have also wondered too. How come the foxes' race cost more than the others to put on?

OOH, Sounds like I hit a Nerve Jared.

Does this mean you will Join a club and Participate in putting one on a race now so you know what it really takes to get Involed?

Kids kids come on now, keep it professional! You guys need to pretend your talking face to face and don’t take stuff so personally! =)

Carlo, you talk like you know me. Well you don't. I have been part of clubs maybe before you were ever envolved with them since i think you have only been a member of the foxes for two years now (I could be wrong), I have sat through Blm meetings. I have help the wizards with the rhino rally a few times. I have been a member of the yucca chuckers and currently I am a member of the wild bunch in MRAN. I probably have not help the wildbunch as much as i should because i have only been chasing the nationals the last two years. So Yes you are right I'm not a usra club members, I also have not raced the full usra series for 6 or 7 years now, just mran and the nationals. fyi i also went down the day before the buzzards gp two weeks ago to help them just out of consideration, I am not a member of the buzzards nor did i do it for work points since i don't race usra. So Carlo, No you did not strike a nerve. just please don't judge people if you don't know anything about them. This is twice you have stated incorrect info about me. I have no problems with the foxes. I really respect charlie he is a great guy. Also I want to thank the sugarloafers and the sageriders for voting to keep there national races this years we are all very fortunate to have people and clubs like these guys in all racing associations not just USRA.

jaredbuoy wrote:
Thanks Eric for the post it really helps to have both sides of the story so people can form there own opinions on this topic instead of having there opinion formed by people like carlo. And carlo Eric brings a good point that I have also wondered too. How come the foxes' race cost more than the others to put on?

I don't know the specific numbers for the foxes races, but I would not imagine that they are much different than the Sage Riders. When we looked at the costs at our last meeting, the margin between profit and loss are very thin. If this extra cost keeps riders away, it turns into a loss.

The simple answer is that by having a national, it keeps more local racers away because of the extra cost than it brings out of state riders in because they are following the series. They have two throw away races and most will throw out the Utah races instead taking on the cost of traveling.

National pro riders do not get any throw aways this year. But yes I believe the other classes have one throw away. (someone please correct me if I'm wrong about the other classes) But i do know the pros have no throw aways

jaredbuoy wrote:
National pro riders do not get any throw aways this year. But yes I believe the other classes have one throw away. (someone please correct me if I'm wrong about the other classes) But i do know the pros have no throw aways

For the nationals, pro turnout has never been a question. It is all about how many local amateurs, novice and sportsman do not come because of the cost. The amount of out of state pros that come is not more than the amount of locals that do not.

jaredbuoy wrote:
Carlo, you talk like you know me. Well you don't. I have been part of clubs maybe before you were ever envolved with them since i think you have only been a member of the foxes for two years now (I could be wrong), I have sat through Blm meetings. I have help the wizards with the rhino rally a few times. I have been a member of the yucca chuckers and currently I am a member of the wild bunch in MRAN. I probably have not help the wildbunch as much as i should because i have only been chasing the nationals the last two years. So Yes you are right I'm not a usra club members, I also have not raced the full usra series for 6 or 7 years now, just mran and the nationals. fyi i also went down the day before the buzzards gp two weeks ago to help them just out of consideration, I am not a member of the buzzards nor did i do it for work points since i don't race usra. So Carlo, No you did not strike a nerve. just please don't judge people if you don't know anything about them. This is twice you have stated incorrect info about me. I have no problems with the foxes. I really respect charlie he is a great guy. Also I want to thank the sugarloafers and the sageriders for voting to keep there national races this years we are all very fortunate to have people and clubs like these guys in all racing associations not just USRA.

Well Good. Keep up the Volunteering.

Marcie wrote:
Local racers who only race USRA have two drops. It is likely that they will use the two Nationals as their drops.

I stand corrected . Thanks Marcie. I knew one of the series had 2 drops. So based on that, there is less incentive for local riders to spend the extra $$$$$$$

Anderson750 wrote:
jaredbuoy wrote:
Thanks Eric for the post it really helps to have both sides of the story so people can form there own opinions on this topic instead of having there opinion formed by people like carlo. And carlo Eric brings a good point that I have also wondered too. How come the foxes' race cost more than the others to put on?

I don't know the specific numbers for the foxes races, but I would not imagine that they are much different than the Sage Riders. When we looked at the costs at our last meeting, the margin between profit and loss are very thin. If this extra cost keeps riders away, it turns into a loss.

The simple answer is that by having a national, it keeps more local racers away because of the extra cost than it brings out of state riders in because they are following the series. They have two throw away races and most will throw out the Utah races instead taking on the cost of traveling.

by reading some of the post on here everyone has their opinion so with that here is mine.
it doent matter if its a natl hh or a local gp in montecilo or in snowville, my piont is the racers will go to what ever race they think will be one of the best. sage riders has one of the best all year not just because of the location its because of the time of year and the chance of moist dirt and even a little snow in the high country. look at the turn out they had last year when they had it in the fall instead of the spring. the foxes if the blm would let them and weather premitting had it the spring time their turnout would be better in my opinion. now we have another problem is the calender issue it seems as hard as we try there is always a conflic, with someone its either best in the desert or the worcs races and then we have mran and northern mrann and idaho, the id city and remc in co the list goes on and on. The problem is there are to many series that overlap for everyone. Don't get me wrong money has alot to do with it but as i remember when price and montecilo had the worcs race alot of people went to that and paid there fees and some didn't just because of the fees. also there have been alot of utah people race best in the desert and paid their entry fees. as far as the drop races are concered they dont mean that much untill after mid year the 2 natl's and the buzzards showed that last year all three races had lower turn outs last year. i dont hear any one complaining about wizards entry fees thats because the riders will go if they know its a good race and in the spring time the posibility of wet conditions

i dont hear any one complaining about wizards entry fees thats because the riders will go if they know its a good race and in the spring time the posibility of wet conditions

True, turnout is affected by weather (everyone is always ready to get away from ice & snow and down south for sunshine and wet dirt). True, turnout is affected by location (malls, hotels, shopping, gambling, the wives & kids loves those things). True, turnout is affected by quality of terrain (sand is less dusty, gnarly washes, fast washes, multiple loops are all incentives to attend). True, turnout is affected by reputation of the event (some clubs have a better reputation than others for doing a very good job), TRUE, the additional cost of an AMA card has a negative effect on turnout. The Rhino isn't AMA so that helps them as well as the other items. Could the Wizards absorb an additional $10.00 per rider fee to the club? Only the Wizards know the answer to that. The Buzzards don't know the Sage Riders financials, the Sage Riders don't know the Buzzards financials. Each club has made it's own decisions based on projected financial outcome of their races. Nobody else is at risk, therefore nobody else has a say in those decisions.
The Sugarloafers and Sage Riders are taking the gamble that Spring events, wet conditions, reputations and special anniversaries will bring more riders. Are Sugarloafers and Sage Riders correct on the gamble? Only time will tell.
AJP